Meta & Children's Online SafetyChat: the choices you guys make lowers morale
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quoted in an excerpt in the archive.
Wednesday 29 September 2021
11:26Shruti BhutadaShilpa! I felt like I never replied to the recruitment question
11:26Shruti BhutadaYes we want their phone numbers too. Although most people give garbage numbers XD
11:28Shruti Bhutada"Facebook Research would like to talk to people [18 years or older living in your area between Monday Feb 1, 2016 and Friday Feb 5, 2016]. If you are selected to participate, you will receive compensation [XXX] to thank you for your time. The research topic is [Facebook mobile apps] and will be conducted by [Insitum] on Facebook's behalf. Please note that by completing this form, Facebook may provide your contact information and answers to our partner research company, [Insitum]. Expressing interest on this form does not guarantee you will be selected to participate."
11:28Shruti BhutadaThis is the language we need to use
11:45Shilpa Modyah ok! I've also used more open-ended language before that's just like we want to talk to people, are you interested? but if we know the info like dates, compensation, etc I will add it
11:45Shilpa Modywill it be through a vendor or will you contact them directly?
11:45Shruti BhutadaI am confirming with 1. They keep changing policies so its a bit annoying.
11:46Shruti BhutadaI am checking if participant recruiting can contact them
11:46Shilpa Modyok, I'll just put in some stuff as placeholder for now
11:46Shruti Bhutadathank you!!
11:47Shilpa Modyoh whoa they just moved the curtiss/ mtg
11:48Shilpa ModyBtw is there a link to the annotated deck somewhere? Should I look at it?
11:48Shilpa ModyDo you know what the point of this mtg is?
11:48Shruti BhutadaI have no idea honestly
11:48Shruti BhutadaI also dont have access to the annotated deck
11:49Shruti Bhutadayeah, its way too late for you
11:49Shruti BhutadaTheir previous time co-incided with a interview for me and those are not movable. But I can just say that since you will be there, I can skip
11:50Shruti BhutadaIf its for the hearing tomorrow I imagine Curtiss prefers an earlier time too
11:51Shruti Bhutadaok they moved it to 12:15
11:51Shilpa Modyyeah it's soon! i'm glad i checked my email because i don't always see last min calendar changes
11:52Shruti Bhutadayeah its crazy.
it because I dont check WP or e-mails then sent me and Wendy a meeting invite for 8:30 am at like late evening and I missed
12:31Shruti Bhutadaaaaaaah
12:31Shruti Bhutadai guess we will know the leaker tho
12:31Shruti BhutadaSo know where to direct my curses XD
12:31Shilpa Modyyeah this is kind of what i expected but still whaaaaaaaat
12:31Shruti Bhutadai know
12:32Shilpa ModyI have never been so happy that I don't use twitter
12:32Shruti BhutadaLike how hard did this person work to read, take graony pictures of and leak thousands of docs?!
12:32Shilpa Modyyeah it's pretty crazy
12:32Shruti BhutadaTBH I only use it for following BTS so usually I am blissfully unaware of whats going on. But, I made the mistake of searching wsj IG and...
12:33Shruti BhutadaBut, it was funny because BTS usually get like a million likes on their tweets. So I saw 1000 ppl liking posts and was like: Meh, this doesnt seem very newsworthy i guess XD
12:34Shilpa Modywhen curtiss said "this is going to be a moment in facebook history.." i like oh fuck this really is going to be a moment fb history
12:34Shruti BhutadaHAHAHAHAHAHA
12:34Shilpa Modyalso this is hands down the nicest i've ever seen curtiss
12:34Shruti BhutadaWhat a weird way to get famous Shilpa XD
12:34Shilpa Modyi didn't even know he had a nice mode
12:34Shruti BhutadaOMG I know!
12:34Shruti BhutadaI was so scared
12:35Shruti BhutadaI thought they were gonna give me the stink eye and they smiled
12:35Shruti BhutadaI was like: Uhhh is this good or bad?
12:35Shilpa ModyI thought there was a reasonable chance that curtiss would be mean and kristin would have to rescue us
12:35Shruti BhutadaI know. I logged in when he and were there
12:36Shruti Bhutadaand I was like: Wow what a way to meet the VP of research for the first time haha, is this my last day here.
12:36Shruti BhutadaBut they were laughing
12:37Shilpa Modythere was a brief period of time (when i was doing primacy stuff for messenger) when she knew who i was!
like she would say hi and stop to chat when she ran into me. but then i'm pretty sure she forgot
12:39Shilpa Modyugh anyway i'm pretty sure reading the annotation will feel kind of cutting, but having all these people keep reinforcing that we don't suck has definitely helped
13:20Shruti BhutadaYeah that will likely sting.
13:21Shruti BhutadaIt was crazy, when Curtis was saying "I really want you all to internalize" I thought he was going to say something like: that we should never use causal language unless data is causal and add context where necessary, I hope you learnt your lesson" XD
13:24Shilpa ModyYES! I literally also thought this
13:25Shilpa ModyI feel like I can't even really identify how I'm feeling. Like I want someone to list out the options of plausible ways that someone could feel in this situation so that I can attempt to identify.
13:25Shilpa Mody... crap, what I'm saying is that I want a multiple choice survey question about my own feelings
13:26Shruti Bhutadaand Kristin keep asking me if I want to chat and I am like: No I want to chat to another person who understands right now. Also I dont know how I feel.
13:26Shruti BhutadaBHAHAHAHA same.
13:26Shilpa ModyYes! They keep asking if they can support in any way and I'm like, what are the options for support? I literally don't know what to ask for
13:26Shruti BhutadaLike I appreciate that they are trying to understand how we might feel and try and address it. BUT HOW ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO FEEL WHEN HISTORIC EVENTS HAPPEN?
13:27Shruti BhutadaI love that you are like: sure, what sort of support are y'all offering
13:27Shilpa ModyIs there one where I can hide under a rock for a couple weeks but also my team can launch awesome products?
13:27Shruti BhutadaI usually hug react and hope they wont ask more XD
13:27Shruti BhutadaOMG I RELATE TO THIS SO MUCH
13:28Shruti BhutadaLike, I cant share with my team, when I am not on 100% they get impatient and start planning research around me and if I tell them its about the leak they tell me to just ignore it. XD.
13:28Shruti BhutadaAlso I am still more mad about the take a break being opt in control than anything else
13:29Shruti Bhutada████
13:29Shruti BhutadaShared an image
13:34Shilpa ModyYeah I am generally kind of like why are we only considering weak sauce ideas? It just feels like we're not taking the problem seriously, even now
13:38Shilpa ModyThat time that Adam was like, maybe it's also bad if I'm looking at basketball for a long time.... Like hang on, what plausible story is there for how that might be bad?? why are you so obsessed with being topic-agnostic?
14:05Shruti BhutadaYeah
14:06Shruti BhutadaAnd he was like:" Yeah go big... have a HUUUUGE interruption for Alt topic nudge
14:06Shruti BhutadaLike wtf dude
14:07Shruti BhutadaI dont think they are. Actually I remember when in 2020 said "we know this is an important problem. But its so fundamental that we dont think we can change it" or something like that
14:07Shruti BhutadaI assumed Adam probably doesnt think in that way
14:07Shruti BhutadaBut I am afraid he probably does
14:10Shruti BhutadaThis is actually something I am pissed about. I feel like the leak and critique is about why IG didnt do anything if they know we have negative impact on teen girls. But the focus internally is on the finding itself (that we have an impact).
14:12Shruti BhutadaLike is it really hard for Adam to be like, we try to prioritize what we can, and elections and equity took priority over this issue? And then maybe revisit his priorities in light of this?
14:17Shilpa ModyYeah totally. We're getting super hung up on whether IG causes these experiences, but what we definitely know is that teens have these experiences *on* IG, and that's typically enough to justify/prioritize work (eg nobody had to spend time arguing about whether IG causes more bullying, we just noted that users experience and see a ton of bullying on IG and we can so something about that).
14:18Shilpa ModyI understand why they have to defend against the causal claim externally, but internally why is it so hard to take responsibility for shitty experiences that users have on the platform that we absolutely could do more to limit?
14:21Shruti Bhutadayeah its a bit odd. Like I doubt anyone would say IG 'caused' or 'created' social comparison because thats existed for ages.
14:21Shruti BhutadaBut we have a responsibility to act on things even if we didnt cause them. Why else do we work on equity of elections?
14:22Shruti Bhutadaidk if they see it this way. Like idk if Adam is like: oh yeah, why DIDNT I prioritize this. He thinks the langauge and the claim in the leak is the problem
14:26Shilpa ModyOh yeah totally. I think their perception is that the worst thing here is the leak itself, followed by the language/mischaracterization of the article, followed by the actual problem facing humans and the fact that we haven't devoted enough resources to it.
14:40Shilpa ModyI asked Curtiss whether anyone on DSS did a weighted version of the analysis, and if so whether we could see it. Not sure if that's an appropriate ask, but I'm honestly kind of curious about how much that would change the results / conclusions.
14:40Shilpa ModyLike did we end up making the wrong decisions because we didn't weight, or is it just shifting numbers around?
14:42Shruti BhutadaI just saw
14:42Shruti Bhutadaand saw his response too
14:42Shruti BhutadaI remember us looking at the populations and making a decision to not weigh
14:43Shruti Bhutadaits 2 years ago though so i am not sure if the memory is accurate
14:43Shruti BhutadaI am curious if the results will change
14:43Shilpa ModyAh damn, I was hoping they might have done this
14:43Shruti Bhutadabut I cant think of why.
14:44Shilpa ModyIt feels kind of weird to dwell on the weighting on every slide's annotation. Like sure it's true that it's not weighted, but people stop listening when you say the same thing over and over
14:44Shruti Bhutadamaybe numbers will be higher for some things (like presumably more disengaged people either are facing acute issues or IG is making it worse for them and we were not really able to capture their experience as well
14:44Shruti Bhutadayeah
14:44Shruti BhutadaI mean this whole thing feels defensive
14:45Shruti BhutadaUltimately it might just seem like we are trying to devalue our internal work when the finding or the rigor behind it was never the controversial piece
14:45Shruti BhutadaLike they arent mad that 1 in 3 girls think we make BI worse. They are mad we 'hid' it and they think that because we didnt do anything + publicly said the effects are mixed.
14:46Shilpa ModyYeah I think the thing that's weird is that it feels like it's defending by saying "we can't take anything away from this" rather than something stronger like "the actual number is less bad"
14:46Shruti Bhutadaand the last statement was about overall well-being (social comparison and BI are just a few things that impact that). So just saying that would be sufficient right?
14:47Shilpa ModyRight, totally. But I don't think FB will actually make that clarification because they are literally still using that defense of saying the impact on WB is mixed
14:49Shilpa ModyLike they always distract from specific problems by trying to focus on positive/neutral overall net impact (eg pushing voter registration instead of being upfront about misinfo, which is what people actually want us to solve)
14:49Shruti Bhutadahaha i didnt realize there were errors in the slide. But them calling it out seems a bit odd.
14:49Shruti BhutadaLike the family stress finding.
14:50Shruti BhutadaI am pretty sure its a typo and should have just stopped at financial stress.
14:50Shruti Bhutadaexactly. and the more they do this the more media and congress and people in general think they are selfish or dont care or incompetent at solving problems
14:50Shruti BhutadaIts like a vicious cycle
14:50Shilpa ModyCalling out the errors preemptively maybe makes sense because otherwise other people will notice and make a big deal of them?
14:50Shruti BhutadaAh gotcha
14:50Shruti Bhutadayeah thats true
14:55Shilpa ModyI wonder if they're using the "you can't really draw any conclusions from this research" approach in the annotations to try to cut off the argument that "FB knew about this"? Like, no we didn't actually know anything because the research didn't say anything?
14:55Shruti Bhutadayeah maybe
14:56Shruti Bhutadabut it really just looks like a critique of the research
14:56Shilpa ModyThat seems crazy from a media POV but maybe makes sense for legal/regulatory reasons?
14:57Shruti BhutadaIts likely only accounting for legal/ regulatory POV. It actually looks pretty bad from media perspective
14:57Shilpa ModyRight it seems super defensive from a media POV which is why I was wondering
14:57Shruti Bhutadalike FB throwing its own employees work under the bus/ devaluing it. Isnt it enough to say these are exploratory studies and in order to determine relationship between wellbeing and social media you need toi do experiments
14:59Shruti Bhutadalike no wonder they keep saying this is not a reflection of how valued you are. This, in addition to all the editing and scrutiny of our current and future work is not making me feel very valued or trusted. I can sort of understand these decks are trying to cover for the company even at the cost of making employees look incompetent.
14:59Shilpa ModyYeah I can't figure out whether this is good strategy in a way that I don't fully understand (eg legal concerns), or just typical FB shitty media strategy
15:02Shruti Bhutadathey keep saying subtitles are misaligned
15:02Shruti Bhutadabut they are not?
15:02Shruti Bhutadalike the graph for makes better or makes worse.
15:03Shruti Bhutadasignificantly more people said IG made problematic use worse compared to any other issue.
15:03Shruti Bhutadathe title already says we generally made things better or have no impact
15:04Shruti Bhutadamisaligned seems like an odd choice of word. The headlines and sub-headlines are calling out findings we should pay attention to
15:04Shilpa ModyI think it's because there's an ambiguity in what the "worse" is comparing to. Like does it mean more people said PU makes it worse compared to other problems, or more people said PU makes it worse compared to makes it better.
15:09Shilpa ModyThe annotation also keeps repeating that these are user perceptions, but like... that really only matters for the makes it better/worse slide. The rest of the time, people's perception is literally ground truth because we're asking about personal experiences / feelings.
15:25Shilpa ModyHmmmm I wonder if part of the reason to make it seem like you can't draw any conclusions from the data is because people will invariably try to read negative things into it (even where there's nothing actually bad), so it's better to basically be like the data means nothing? Eg some person who wants to make it look bad will be like "49% of IG users have anxiety but only X% of the general population does so IG must be bad" and so it's better to undermine confidence in the whole thing?
15:25Shilpa Modyok I should stop obsessing about this but I can't!
15:42Shruti Bhutadahmmm ok.
15:42Shruti Bhutadayeah i am not sure how else you would measure well-being.
15:43Shruti BhutadaI mean none of that will stop the motivated. I actually thing saying you cant draw conclusions could make it worse.
15:44Shruti BhutadaLike, if you say "dont look here its not important", everyone is gonna look there and think its important.
15:45Shilpa ModyYeah I am really just trying to understand the reasoning behind this. Like I feel like they're absolutely throwing us under the bus and making us sound incompetent, which is not great obviously but would feel better to me if there was a good reason to do it.
15:45Shruti Bhutadaif they focus on flaws in the research as opposed to the public critique, which is about flaws in leadership, they come across as defensive.
15:46Shruti BhutadaMark and Adam suck at self reflection and awareness? And Pratiti and others really have no choice?
15:46Shilpa ModyHaha right but like what is their goal / what benefit to they believe they will get from this?
15:47Shilpa ModyI don't even really understand that
15:47Shilpa ModyLike why do they think that this is a good strategy (correctly or incorrectly)
15:47Shruti Bhutadalike if this is what Adam is pissed about then they cant do anything right? The moment the research needs to be presented in congress they almost need to just follow what legal says and cover the company's ass.
15:48Shruti Bhutadamy guess is they want to prove that Mark didnt lie to Congress last year
15:48Shruti BhutadaI dont know why they are going about it this way. Because he didnt. But they are just disqualifying everything they can in the research in case someone takes some finding and makes a big deal about it
15:49Shruti BhutadaI mean they are even trying to disqualify the qual work haha
15:50Shilpa ModyYeah I think they're basically trying to discredit the work so much that it's like it didn't get leaked at all
15:50Shilpa ModyTo stop cherry picking, etc
15:51Shilpa ModyAnd they are probably also trying to fight this on all fronts
15:52Shruti Bhutadayeah
15:52Shilpa ModyLike saying, we didn't really know anything, and also we didn't fail to act because we did build things, and also we didn't like
15:52Shilpa ModyLie
15:53Shruti Bhutadagiven how much they are telling us we should not take this personally my guess is they dont have much control on this. But its actually really messed up if thats the case.
15:53Shruti BhutadaLike DSS and etc probably dont have much control over this.
15:53Shruti BhutadaIts just so messed up.
15:53Shilpa Mody... do you think this is something I can ask Kristin? Like what's the thinking behind undermining the research?
15:54Shruti BhutadaI think we can! If you are worried I can ask her too. So she can get mad at both of us instead of one XD
15:55Shruti BhutadaThey keep saying leaks lower morale... no, Adam the choices you guys make lowers morale
15:56Shruti BhutadaOn one hand we have Miki and literally forcing the product team to make stupid decisions (teens dont want meditation, show lava lamps; or you cant have the break without it being opt in first). On the other hand we get discredited for doing the best work we could.
15:57Shruti BhutadaThey (or ) are responsible for the Take a Break being opt in btw. I just chatted with
15:57Shruti Bhutada████
15:58Shilpa ModyYeah I've definitely considered it but then I think I'll get kicked out of the country because I don't have a green card haha
15:59Shruti Bhutadathis is really so messed up. I want to assume good intent of and dont want to find out I am wrong.
16:01Shilpa ModyYeah I think they have good intent and Kristin. But I honestly
16:03Shilpa ModyIt's easier for me to believe that for research people than for product/ other leads though
16:04Shruti Bhutadahahaha true.
16:05Shruti BhutadaI guess I am more cynical. I trust etc. But I also feel like they are being asked to check in and assure us maybe so we dont go and join the leaker or something. XD. I am sure thats not what Kristin or might have been told. I hope I am just being too cynical.
16:07Shruti Bhutadaman reading this annotated deck after hearing them out feels like someone slapped you hard then gave you a candy saying they have no hard feelings XD
16:08Shilpa ModyYeah totally, I feel like I know understand why they felt they needed to have that meeting with all of them there
16:09Shilpa ModyRather than sending an email like they did over the weekend
16:24Shruti Bhutadayeah. Initially I was like: I dont understand. But I read through that deck and I was like..oh
16:24Shruti BhutadaI mean its also ironic that they keep splitting hairs on semantics and causal language but keep saying something is myopic or misaligned. Like those words are so broad, what do you mean?
16:33Shilpa ModyYeah I feel like there are basically three buckets of comments: 1) pointing out this mistake before others do, 2) things are not as bad as the slide makes it seem, 3) you can't believe anything in this research. The first two seem understandable to me, the third does not.
16:34Shruti Bhutadayeah.
16:34Shruti Bhutadaits going a bit too far and I am not sure why
16:35Shilpa ModyBtw is the other deck that they're releasing yours as well (w Wendy)?
16:35Shruti Bhutadait also makes FB look bad, like FB is devaluaing its own work and ppl to protect its ass. I read as much on verge when Pratiti wrote her blog post. And her blog post was actually pretty reasonable.
16:36Shruti BhutadaI have no idea. I thought it would be 's own research
16:36Shruti BhutadaThe suicide self injury findings were taken from her deck
16:36Shilpa ModyI wonder if it's literally preferable for the company that the data wasn't weighted or whatever because then they can trash it more.
16:36Shilpa ModyYeah I felt that her post was reasonable as well
16:36Shruti BhutadaA lot of it was from her work actually I think only the 1 in 3 was from HLM 1 and there was one quote from qual study.
16:38Shruti BhutadaI dont understand this. It makes people who work for them feel like crap. Externally I cant imagine these journalists and congress people going: Oh man! Those researchers didnt even weigh the data and wrote myopic headlines? Wow, now I feel bad for facebook
16:39Shruti Bhutadalike poor Adam, here have a hug. Man why do you hire these researchers
16:39Shruti Bhutada:-/
16:45Shilpa ModyI'm pretty sure that 90%+ surveys run at FB aren't weighted and have myopic headlines!
16:45Shruti BhutadaI am sure 99% do. I MEAN WHAT WILL THEY SAY IF AND 'S STUDY GOT LEAKED? Sorry
16:45Shruti BhutadaAlso.., this study literally copies work
16:46Shruti BhutadaLike, except for the bubble chart, I even followed his ranking exercise.
16:50Shilpa ModyUghhhhhhhh ok I'm going to try not to think about this for a while
16:52Shilpa ModyOmg just saw the other thread wtfffffff
16:53Shruti BhutadaI know